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Anton
Site Admin
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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 Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: Thoughts on new league structure |
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Hi all
What a night last night was! A league game, heads up match and various side games all going at once. Followed by frank and heated debate on the structure of the new league.
This has prompted me to start a thread to allow people to post ideas and thoughts on this subject.
The two main proposals we have had suggested are
1. The top three positions should be rewarded by more than one point over the previous one ie first place is, say, three points more than second rather than the current scenario where there is a one point gap.
2. Only a set number of each player's best results should be counted.
Just to put in my twopennorth I personally agree with the first proposal and disagree with the second. I feel that winning should be rewarded and that the difference between first and second should be worth playing for.
Taking the best results I disagree with mainly because it does not reward consistency. allow me to give an, admittedly, extreme example.
Let's say we have a league which consists of 20 games (this half year league will be around that amount) and we agree only to include each player's top 10 scores in the league.
Player A at the end of the league has played all 20 games and has won 10 of them and come second in the other 10. A very impressive record in my opinion and worth a high placing.
Player B has also played 20 games and has won 10 of them and come last in the other 10. A very different profile, but both players end up with the same points and tie for first place in the league. In my opinion Player A has been far more consistent and deserves to have won the league.
Yes I agree that this is a contrived example but this effect of rewarding players who score highly in some games but go out early in other will happen to a lesser extent in any scenario.
Looking at our current standings we have
Paul 80
Mark 68
Helen 66
Anton 66
Maria 65
Matthew 55
Lisa 51
Dave 34
Chris VS 30
Chris L 26
Matt 15
Jack 9
Jason 8
Taking only each player's top 6 scores we get.
Paul 47
Maria 44
Helen 44
Lisa 44
Anton 43
Mark 43
Matthew 42
Dave 33
ChrisVS 28
ChrisL 25
Matt 15
Jack 9
Jason 8
If we have a look at the game histories
www.pokerqueens.co.uk/league.html
We will see that the main change has been that players who have an extreme mixture of high and low scores improve their positions. The more extreme the mixture the higher the improvement. More consistent players remain about the same or drop positions.
If this were to be adopted the best strategy would be to play very loose agressive in the opening stages. This way you would either go out early (but never mind because this game won't count against you) or amass loads of chips which give you a good chance of finishing in the top three places. It would be best to aim for either high or low scores, medium ones would not be advantageous.
This would change the flavour of our games considerably if we all played in this way and would, in my opinion make the first hour a bit of a lottery.
There could be an argument for rewarding aggression and risk taking but I think that the first proposal does this. If we give more points to those top three places we are rewarding those who finish first without allowing them to take consequence-free risks in order to do it.
If your bad games count against you as well as your good games then people have to play with more consistency in order to succeed and, in my opinion, like Player A above, would deserve their place.
Any thoughts?
A |
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m4rkie
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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I am in agreement with Anton.
I suggested this in a previous thread regarding extra points for 1st, 2nd, 3rd.
| Quote: | Scoring is the same, except 3rd gets +1, 2nd +3 and 1st +6 points. This way, people playing are always rewarded with points, but the rewards are greater for finishing highest - the difference between 3rd and 4th is 2 points, 2nd and 3rd 3pts, and 1st/2nd 4 points.
Eg in a 10 handed game:
1st 16
2nd 12
3rd 9
4th 7
5th 6
6th 5
7th 4
8th 3
9th 2
10th 1
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Our current league would look like this:
99 Paul
81 Mark
80 Helen
79 Maria
78 Anton
69 Lisa
68 Matthew
40 Dave
36 Chris VS
35 Chris L
15 Matt
12 Jack
11 Jason
Consistent top 5 placings with regular top 3 placings puts you even further ahead than in our current system.
Just my twopennorth. |
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hurleyp
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Whatever we decide I think the top five could be rewarded more, given as we may be starting with a higher number each week in League 2. Just trying to think of ways to make it attractive.
If we don't go for the 'best of' scenario, can someone post a suggestion for the exact structure they would propose. I am having difficulty overcoming the 'variable number of players' factor which exists each week. Maybe only the top ten should be given any points at all? |
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hurleyp
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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More thoughts:
Firstly, in your second example Anton (the top six scores), I reckon that ten players could still conceivably win the league, which I don't think is the case in our current system, where maybe seven could win it m(maybe, if they all turn up each week that is). Your second example shows a much closer league which is to my mind much more exciting.
Secondly, isn't aggression in the early part of the play a key factor in tournament play (we are after all playing a tournament each week)? If we are trying to replicate a real world situation then surely that is better then sitting around waiting for AA? Or K7 in my case?
Thirdly, what do we do about players who can't make every week? If I miss a week I don't want to be unfairly punished. |
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Anton
Site Admin
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| hurleyp wrote: |
Firstly, in your second example Anton (the top six scores), I reckon that ten players could still conceivably win the league, which I don't think is the case in our current system, where maybe seven could win it m(maybe, if they all turn up each week that is). Your second example shows a much closer league which is to my mind much more exciting.
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I agree that the second example shows a much closer league but I do not think that this correctly reflects the way the games have gone. The current standing of the league shows you a fair distance in front because you have been the best player. Full stop. I don't see why we would not want to reflect this. And if another player has peformed less well and is no longer able to win the league then that is the nature of competition. If we don't want there to be winners and losers then don't keep score.
Such a player, even though they cannot win, has other reasons for turning up on sunday night. The most obvious being that they enjoy having a weekly game of poker. Dave and Matt (and now Jack) have joined the league late in full knowledge before their first game that they would not be able to win. They turn up and play whenever they can. I can only assume that they do so because they like playing and can also get satisfaction out of playing well and improving. Dave won last night and that is a worthwhile achievement even though it cannot translate into long-term victory.
So I don't think that having as many people as possible in a position where they can still win is a particularly worthwhile objective, particularly if it leads to a structure which, in my opinion, does not reflect the real course of play.
| hurleyp wrote: |
Secondly, isn't aggression in the early part of the play a key factor in tournament play (we are after all playing a tournament each week)? If we are trying to replicate a real world situation then surely that is better then sitting around waiting for AA? Or K7 in my case?
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Agreed. A lot of top players play this way. Enter a lot of tournaments, play loose agressive in the beginning and either go out early or cash in. Because of the payout structure and the fact that good players will probably cash enough times to pay for plenty of entry fees (how many 10k buyins can Joe Hachem get for his 7.5M first prize in the Main Event last year?) this is a profitable strategy for those whose style it suits.
We however are kind of playing a tournament a week and kind of not. They are not stand alone tournaments but part of a league and there is no payout for each individual game, only for the player who has performed best over the whole of the duration of the league. I strongly believe that this must include our worst performances as well as our best. Adopting a structure which awards more points for the top places will, in my opinion, add this aspect to the game i.e. make players take risks and make moves in order to go for the richer prizes paid out to the winners, without allowing them to hide their bad results. I want to see people playing exciting poker but don't want a crap-shoot.
| hurleyp wrote: |
Thirdly, what do we do about players who can't make every week? If I miss a week I don't want to be unfairly punished. |
I agree that this could be a problem but also think that it will probably even out. We are all going to have times when we can't make it or are away. As it stands at the moment however I think that people come along every week that they can because they want to play, not because of the possible effect on their placing. I would have played exactly the same amount of games if we had not had a league at all.
If and when I have to miss one I won't consider that I am being 'unfairly punished'. That's life when you are a recreational poker player, playing low stakes games with your friends. Sometimes other things take precedence. (Remember also that if you don't play you are not paying your £1 entry fee so no-one is getting robbed).
I have spent quite a lot of time trying to find examples of what people do when they run poker leagues elsewhere and I have found that most people don't do it at all. Of the millions of people who play regular weekly poker games around the world very few actually try to run a league system. Most people play stand alone games for a single cash payout in that game only. Maybe that is because recreational poker just doesn't lend itself to a league structure. There is an argument for not having another league at all but still continuing to have our weekly game.
If we all still paid our £1 entry and paid out 70/30 to first and second place each game would be a seperate entity so it wouldn't matter what your previous performances were. Every week there would be something to play for for everyone. I turn up this week, pay my buy-in and could win £7 (or whatever). If I want to keep track of my own performance it is easy to do. I know if I am winning more money than losing, if I am improving or having a bad run etc.
The vast majority of people play this way. Maybe they know something we don't.
I'm happy to do this or to play a league of pretty much any type of structure. I disagree with your suggestion for the reasons I have given but if the majority agree with it I will happily go with that majority.
Ultimately I'll turn up for a game every week because I like playing poker.
A |
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Helen
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 150
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: Structure |
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I tend to agree. I honestly can't see what benefit it adds to take just the top scores into account.
Perhaps, if we go with the idea of rewarding the top three (or whatever) players with more points (which I'm more than happy with), we have a fixed points structure each week, regardless of how many players there are?
I think the number of games played is going to even out - we are all likely to have other commitments, or be away on holiday at some point. If we're starting again in July, for instance, Chris and I will miss the first two games, but c'est la vie. I'm sure other people will miss some too. |
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m4rkie
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Anton wrote: |
I have spent quite a lot of time trying to find examples of what people do when they run poker leagues elsewhere and I have found that most people don't do it at all. Of the millions of people who play regular weekly poker games around the world very few actually try to run a league system. Most people play stand alone games for a single cash payout in that game only. Maybe that is because recreational poker just doesn't lend itself to a league structure. There is an argument for not having another league at all but still continuing to have our weekly game.
If we all still paid our £1 entry and paid out 70/30 to first and second place each game would be a seperate entity so it wouldn't matter what your previous performances were. Every week there would be something to play for for everyone. I turn up this week, pay my buy-in and could win £7 (or whatever). If I want to keep track of my own performance it is easy to do. I know if I am winning more money than losing, if I am improving or having a bad run etc.
The vast majority of people play this way. Maybe they know something we don't.
A |
Sunday's game saw me lose most of my chips in one hand. If top 3 were paid out i'd be staring down the barrel thinking, ah well better luck next time. As it was, I stuck it out for 5th place. 5 points, thank you very much... even though i played one hand all game. I got 5 points for sitting there for 2 hours doing nothing. Did i deserve those points for holding on? I wonder where I might finish if I didn't play a hand all game?
But, the current league is enjoyable because we all like to play each other. Though it allows for conservative play to start with, things pick up quickly after the first hour when people start dropping out and the stakes get high. The pattern seems to be that nobody goes out in the first hour, and then half the field disappear in the following hour, and then it's another half hour or so before the next person goes. If we have a points "bubble" at, say, 4th place, where 1-4 get extra points than they do now, it could make for a more interesting showdown. |
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Bennie the Flop
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Just a few thoughts. If we decide at the beginning how many games are likely to be played, then we could have a minimum game qualification. For example, if we are going to play thirty games, to qualify as a winner you would need to play 23 games (roughly 75%). Every player who has played at least 23 games then qualifies to win. Of these players we take the player who has played the least games,(say 25) as our marker and take our 'best' 25 scores. This at least would address the issue of being at a disadvantage through playing fewer games. |
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m4rkie
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Bennie the Flop wrote: | | Just a few thoughts. If we decide at the beginning how many games are likely to be played, then we could have a minimum game qualification. For example, if we are going to play thirty games, to qualify as a winner you would need to play 23 games (roughly 75%). Every player who has played at least 23 games then qualifies to win. Of these players we take the player who has played the least games,(say 25) as our marker and take our 'best' 25 scores. This at least would address the issue of being at a disadvantage through playing fewer games. |
i think this is good, perhaps in combination with a revised points system. |
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ChrisL
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 152
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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I've been runnng a fantasy football league at work for the past seasons premiership.
I kinda had to bully a few people who knew nothing about football to join the league so as to make up the numbers, and in the end I ended up with a league of 15 teams.
Anyway, without boring you with the details of this league, I found that halfway through the season, some folk were losing a wee bit interest cos they weren't doing too well - fair enough.
So to keep everyone interested, and still in with a chance of winning something, I introduced a 'manager of the month' compition, and put everyones scores into a supplimentary league for just the current month.
I even got a wee 'Manager of the month' trophy engraved and the winner got to keep it for a month (that along with a bag of sweeties).
Since then, the whole league has become super competitive, and much more fun, cos even if you have a crappy month, you can still try to turn it around the next month.
It's amazing how people have become so possesive of that little trophy, but I can honestly say that the league became revitalised since it's introduction.
It also enables some folk to join halfway through, and still be in with a chance of winning something.
Of course, the outright winner still gets all the accolade (and a better trophy that they get to keep), but it's been great to see different folk winning something at the end of the month for all their troubles.
Maybe we could do something similar with our new league structure?
_________________
"Look into my eyes, look into my eyes..." |
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m4rkie
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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A suggestion for a Heads-up side league..: (??)
Each participant plays a match against each other participant.
Each match has two games, so rather like football, 2 wins gets 3 points, 1 each gets 1 point each and losing both obviously gets nothing.
So, with 10 participants, each player plays 9 matches, which could be spread out over a few months and at everybody's own convenience, with the knowledge that everybody plays the same number of games.
Any thoughts? |
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Anton
Site Admin
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: |
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I thought about doing a round robin tournament but wanted it to finish at roughly the same time as the league so went for double elimination instead.
Would be good for next time though.
A |
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m4rkie
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Does anyone fancy a new league? Prob not sundays now as there a few regulars who wouldn't be able to make it. Sat is normally not busy in the bar, and we can do home games.
And taking into account players not necessarily being able to make each game we may have to agree with a "best results" system. Though i think an extra point for knocking out a player mite be interesting- 1st place would get an extra point by default, for example..
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??
Joined: 02 Nov 2013
Posts: 76
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:05 pm Post subject: excluding shareholders. |
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